I found this post over at Heaving Dead Cats, another atheist/skeptic blog. It highlights the huge differences in beliefs between the Old Testament Jew and the New Testament beliefs of the Christians.
Here's the link to the post.
How the New Testament Came About
Hilarious... but seriously, what ignorant skeptic contributed to this section of the script?
ReplyDeleteGod: Look, this is just complicated, okay Jesus? Besides, you totally return when you fight the Devil.
Jews: Who?
God: Right, he’s another new character. He’s like an evil God. Plot twist, right? We’re arch enemies.
Jesus: Why would you make your own arch-enemy? That’s really stupid.
God: Shut up, Jesus. And what would you know? You’re made of bread and wine.
Jesus: What? Why?
God: Sponsorships, alright? New testaments aren’t cheap.
Jews: I’m sorry, this is just way too different. Is this your fan-fiction or something?
God: Of course not. This is the logical progression of Judaism which I planned all along. Like when I made all those references to a lamb.
Jews: You made, like, five.
I would like to meet this person and say these things to him.
1 - The "Devil" or Satan (Hebrew 'accuser' Arabic 'adversary') IS NOT a new character. Not in the slightest. Example follows...
1 Kings 22 sees Satan present himself before God for work. Now I have issues with this scripture for separate reasons which you should not find hard to guess after reading. Ask me if you can't pick them. But my point is that this is Old Teste Satan in his prime.
More examples...
1 Samuel 16 sees an evil spirit torment King Saul.
Genesis 3!! (FFS...)
1 Chronicles 21 Satan influences King David
the whole premise of Job (FFS again... chuck a *facepalm* in there for kicks)
2 - the Devil IS NOT the arch rival of God.
He is the arch rival of humanity. Christian Doctrine 101. God is all-powerful. The Mack-Daddy. He doesn't have an enemy capable of challenging him. Matthew 13, full of parables about sowing seeds etc. refers to Satan as OUR enemy, sowing seeds which become weeds.
3 - God DID NOT make his own arch-enemy.
As already explained in the previous point, he has no arch-enemy. What he created was an angel, (in fact a plethora of angels). Satan was cast out of the team for turning against God.
4 - The Bible DOESN'T LITERALLY SAY that Jesus is made of bread and wine.
Please. It's a bloody illustration (pun semi-intended). You're grasping at straws Mr(s). Skeptic Scriptwright
5 - There are more references to lambs in the Old Testament than there are in the New Testament.
Lamb is but one of Jesus' many alias.
Cool. I'm done :D
1 Kings 22 Let's see....
ReplyDelete21 Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the LORD and said, 'I will entice him.'
22 " 'By what means?' the LORD asked.
" 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,' he said.
" 'You will succeed in enticing him,' said the LORD. 'Go and do it.'
23 "So now the LORD has put a lying spirit in the mouths of all these prophets of yours. The LORD has decreed disaster for you."
It doesn't say that the spirit was the satan of christian tradition at all. But yes, I can see the problem you have with this passage, the great Thomas Paine had similar grievances, and compiled a short list of them into a work that he called 'Biblical Blasphemy'. I may do a post about this work as it is rather interesting.
1 Samuel 16 has the same problem as the passage from 1 Kings, except this time it is more obvious that it is not the devil of Christian tradition.
14 Now the Spirit of the LORD had departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD tormented him.
15 Saul's attendants said to him, "See, an evil spirit from God is tormenting you.
The writer was quite clear that the spirit came from god.
Genesis 3 is quite obviously not a literal account of events, but rather a figurative story. If you read the chapter from this perspective I highly doubt that anyone would infer that the serpent was literally a real being.
The passage in Chronicles is the only time where Satan is mentioned, and in some translations it is rendered as 'adversary' or it is added in parenthesis after mentioning Satan. I would be interested to see a literal translation of what the Hebrew text said, to see if a supernatural spirit/demon/devil/fallen angel is even implied at all.
Job was not originally a Hebrew/Jewish book, but was derived from a Sumerian text that dates back much earlier than the biblical tradition. This may explain the earlier date of the book of Job and may explain why it is so different in style and theology to the entire rest of the bible.
Still even if Satan is primarily OUR enemy, he is still an enemy of god then, and Christian tradition has a lot to say about spiritual wars between the armies of god and the armies of Satan, that sounds like an arch-enemy of god to me.
God supposedly created Satan, only to be betrayed and wreak havoc upon humanity. How could an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being have such an egregious error in judgement, to create such a being.
More references to lambs in the OT, I'd believe that sure. I'd be willing to bet most if not all of them aren't referring to a sacrificial messiah.
I would be interested to see a literal translation of what the Hebrew text said, to see if a supernatural spirit/demon/devil/fallen angel is even implied at all.
ReplyDeleteI too would be interested to see. This is why I highlighted in my previous post that Satan means 'adversary' and/or 'accuser' etc. Maybe he's not ONE SPECIFIC CHARACTER/BEING like you and I? I don't think Satan has to be interpreted the same way KJ or Ryan are. For example I am not at all a "little king", but Satan (when mentioned) is definitely exercising adversary/accuser tendencies in the Bible. Perhaps 'names' in the Bible are sometimes used as representations/descriptions rather than purely the "character" label, e.g. Adam = 'man'. God created man. Yes. Like you say - it's definitely a figurative story. God created one singular short brown haired naked man with a leaf covering his dong, named Adam Smith? Not necessarily.
The five examples I used are all talking about Satan. Why on earth would the Bible have to specifically state that it is Satan? It is obvious! Maybe we need a Ultra Clarified Bible translation nowadays with all the grey areas and issues. It might include a 1 Kings 22:22a and a 1 Samuel 16:14a that say "by the way this spirit is clearly Satan".
Also just because a spirit "came from God" doesn't mean it isn't Satan. After all, God is responsible for loosing Satan upon Job. Further, he's responsible for creating him in the first place. Why do Christians say grace before eating? Because the food "came from God". No it came from Countdown. No. It "came from God". Thanks God etc.
RE: Job. That's interesting, I knew it was mysterious but didn't know it was derived from Sumeria. But origins are irrelevant regarding the point I was making. It's Satan and it's in the Christian Bible and more importantly is considered Jewish canon (Old Testament). Therefore, not a NEW New Testament character. Jesus himself would have read Job and said 'naughty Satan' haha.
Enemy of God. You can call it that. Semantics though. My point was that both the armies of God and the armies of Satan were all originally created by God. They are (were) all angels. They battle each other sure. God doesn't have an "evenly matched foe" though. An omni-everything being would by definition dominate.
You can ask God the "egregious error" question. I feel his response might be something like "Who are you to universally define what I did as making an egregious error?" (sounds Jobish)
While the sacrificial lambs might not refer to Jesus SPECIFICALLY. You can smell out the common "sacrificial requirement" theme.
I think that's all. Will comment again if I remember something else :D
I went an did a little bit of fact checking with Jewish sources. It appears that in Judaism, there in no concept of Satan/the devil as an entity. The concept of Satan literally means “accuser,” "adversary," “hinderer,” or “tempter" but does not refer to a being, but rather the concept of these things. The character of Satan is used as a literary device and isn't intended as a literal figure.
ReplyDeleteThe other Jewish view of Satan is that he is an angel sent by god to tempt humans and act as a force of evil in the world to give humans a choice to decide between.
Both of these views are quite contrary to the Christian view of the devil. So it WOULD be an accurate statement to say that the Satan of Christianity IS a new character introduced in the new testament.
Jewish Encyclopedia: Satan
Jewish Virtual Library: Satan
Does Judaism Believe in Satan?
Exactly. I think a lot of Bible is 'concept'. A buttload actually.
ReplyDeleteI loathe fundamental Christian views of the Bible. Naked people wearing leaves, Giraffes and all manner of exotic African animals hanging out of Arks, fire and brimstone, red devils with horns and tridents, etc. etc.
Maybe I'm a Jew at heart when it comes to Satanic concepts? Haha. Always been a Christian but have never fully been on board with the Devil who reigns over the fires of Hell idea.
KJ, just read your last link there and, I gotta say, it makes more sense than anything I've ever read from Christianity about the topic. Which is sad, because if God really was real I would at least feel entitled to an awesome epic showdown that would keep me entertained for hours. Except for the fact that it wouldn't need a spoiler. (Assuming the Bible is true as modern Christianity is concerned.)
ReplyDeleteYeah I found it quite interesting too, it does make sense when you realise that the jewish cultural and religious tradition is where the writings and ideas first came from. Christians added their own stuff on top which is just more confusing.
ReplyDelete